[kwlug-disc] Ubuntu LTS future

Fri Jun 26 16:31:47 EDT 2020

DIfferent people have different reactions to snaps. I've been experimenting with snaps in 18.04, and the technology is unacceptable to me: I don't want it on my machine.

Partly it's because snaps are unusable on my system. A snap program cannot read or write files on my ZFS array, which is where I store all of my personal data and working files. That is part of the sandboxing design, and it cannot be overridden by the user. Snaps that use the GPU to display 3D graphics will not work on my system. That's a bug, caused by the sandboxing that Canonical uses to mediate GPU access, and even if it were fixed, I worry that 3D graphics performance would suffer. And again, this can't be disabled by the user.

Partly it's because the snap system is not open source. It is proprietary and locked down. There is only one snap store, controlled by Canonical. You can't distribute snaps to other users without Canonical's permission, since nobody else can create a snap server. You can copy snap files around but then there is no update mechanism. Same problem as Apple's iOS app store (which is one reason I refuse to own an iOS device). Snap is part of a long term vision to gradually evolve Ubuntu into a more locked-down, proprietary system like iOS. I'm getting out now, rather than living with a degraded experience and watching it slowly get worse with successive future releases. Same reason I'm switching my laptop from Mac to Linux.

Others have noted that you have no control over when snaps upgrade, and you can't roll back an upgrade that breaks your system.

Flatpak seems to have fewer of these problems. I intend to move to a distro where there is no snap, and where flatpak support is integrated, as a first class citizen. (Which probably means any major distro other than Ubuntu.) Maybe I won't like flatpak either, but I want to experiment and see if I want to distribute my own software (Curv) as a flatpak. Some of my users want this (easy install and uninstall, auto upgrade). It looks like an important part of the non-Ubuntu Linux ecosystem from now on. With the other distros boycotting Snap, Flatpak is probably the place to be, if you like that sort of thing.

Doug Moen.

On Fri, Jun 26, 2020, at 7:16 PM, Jon Champagne wrote:
> I've been using Ubuntu 20.04 pretty much since release at the end of April on my main desktop for school and play, and honestly I generally forget snaps are even installed. Given, I'm using a pretty high end desktop, but still snaps don't get in the way and I haven't found any programs I use on a daily basis to be snap-ified unless they're incompatible otherwise (ie cherrytree because no python 2 anymore). 
> 
> Yes, Canonical might be pushing a bit hard with the whole snap thing, but honestly between snap, flatpak, and native packages I can get absolutely everything I need to get work done every day, and it all works like a well oiled machine and has been since day one.
> 
> On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 2:22 pm, Paul Nijjar via kwlug-disc <kwlug-disc at kwlug.org> wrote:
>> In my experience with 20.04 so far, Chromium is the only package I noticed that has been replaced with a Snap. Khalid or others who use 20.04 more extensively may know more, though. - Paul On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 01:45:15PM -0400, Doug Moen wrote: 
>>> I'm deciding how to upgrade my Ubuntu 18.04 LTS desktop. One issue is that I use ZFS and rely on Ubuntu's ZFS packaging. Most distribution don't support ZFS, so you have to roll your own. Another issue is that I have an nvidea GPU. Options: Ubuntu 20.04, but remove Snap. Pop OS 20.04. No support for ZFS on root or automatic filesystem snapshot on package install. But I could roll my own using BTRFS on root. My existing ZFS array is supported. Pop has some features i'd like to try, such as tiling window mode, and a flat pack app store. No snap and good nvidea support. Doug. On Fri, Jun 26, 2020, at 11:39 AM, Khalid Baheyeldin wrote: > In another thread, Paul said: > > On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 8:51 PM Paul Nijjar via kwlug-disc <kwlug-disc at kwlug.org> wrote: >> Clearly LTS is losing, which means a lot more cognitive burdens for >> sysadmins -- but at the same time Salt (and many other projects) that >> use the rolling release "move fast and break things" approach depend >> upon a stable Ubuntu onto which they can build THEIR software. They >> just don't want the people USING Salt to have the same experience. >> There is some kind of disconnect here. >> >> In this case the situation is worse. Ubuntu included the >> salt-master in its LTS release. Ubuntu 18.04 is still supported. But >> the LTS release promise is now broken, because if somebody installs >> Salt from the Ubuntu repos they will get software with a level 10 CVE. >> >> Unfortunately, I think this means I ought to track upstream and use >> their repos, which is another administrative headache I wanted to >> avoid. It also means that I would now need to upgrade all my minions to >> track the latest release, and who knows what that will break. > > Paul, > > I am in complete agreement with you here. I don't use Salt, but I know > that I want to stay with LTS releases, feeling secure. This depends on > repository governance and stewardship by those who maintain the > packages and the distro's security team. > > Lately, there have been cases where the ball was dropped (Salt is such > a case). > > More worrying is that going forward, Canonical is forging ahead with snap. > Snap freezes the dependencies of an app at a certain point. Moreover, it > requires a cluttered file system, with each app having its own /snap/xxx > file system mounted! > > On a new 20.04 LTS server install, I am getting these snap apps by default: > > /dev/loop0 72M 72M 0 100% /snap/lxd/15682 > /dev/loop3 97M 97M 0 100% /snap/core/9436 > /dev/loop1 72M 72M 0 100% /snap/lxd/15766 > > And Canonical will be releasing Chrome/Chromium as a snap package, > encapsulated withing a .deb. This means Canonical is acting as an intermediary > unnecessarily. > > Mint decided that enough is enough, and will not support snap anymore. > > https://www.zdnet.com/article/linux-mint-dumps-ubuntu-snap/ > > All this makes me wonder whether Ubuntu should still be the favoured distro > with LTS and rich maintained repos. Should I go with Debian stable and be > done with it? > _______________________________________________ > kwlug-disc mailing list > kwlug-disc at kwlug.org > https://kwlug.org/mailman/listinfo/kwlug-disc_kwlug.org >
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