[kwlug-disc] Ubuntu is replacing .deb with Snappy

[Chris Frey]

First, apologies, as it looks like I assumed too early that Snappy uses
btrfs.  It's hard to find out exactly what it uses, but it looks
partition based.  For example, this page mentions vfat and ext4:

	https://developer.ubuntu.com/en/snappy/guides/filesystem-layout/

I made a mental connection with what I had read earlier on 0pointer.net,
so the direction didn't seem surprising, although I made an incorrect
assumption on the underlying technology.

I like the old way of package management, but then again I'm not managing
1000 cloud images and apps either.  This Snappy thing appears to be
*very* cloud oriented.  It just happens to show up on Ubuntu desktop,
since that is Ubuntu's own dogfood.

Rollback is one area in the old package management which is really non-existant.
There's no "apt-get undo".  If you're unlucky enough to have cleared your
apt-get cache, just finding the old .deb you need is work.

The potential duplication of data in Snappy concerns me, but it could
be mitigated by btrfs.  I haven't tried Snappy yet, but from the overview,
it looks like developers can include the libraries they want.  This
looks like a maintenance headache when you want to fix the latest SSL bug
in all your app containers.

As for monoculture, when it comes to package management, I live in one
already.  Apt-get is the first and best package manager that handles
dependencies, in my opinion, and there's nothing that matches it,
even though it has its problems.  Other package management systems
feel kludgy to me in comparison.

I stick with Debian because of the large software repository, their signed
packages, their free software focus, and their stability.  It appears
that Ubuntu is at least copying 2 of those 4 (large repo and signed
Snappy packages, from what I've read), and we'll see how they do on
the last two.

I'm happy to stand on the sidelines and see how Ubuntu does for now.
A quick test in my Jessie VM seems to indicate that it is still possible
(with minimal work) to install xfce4 without systemd or pulseaudio.

So choice still exists. :-)

- Chris




On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 10:25:32AM -0400, Khalid Baheyeldin wrote:
> Anyone can make outrageous claims or ideas.
> 
> So when someone advocates for a package management system built on top of a
> specific file system, that is not really odd.
> 
> What is odd is that the majority do not see that this limits choice and
> promotes monoculture (you have to use btrfs to use newfanglepkg). This lack
> of choice and monoculture have been the mainstay of the free software
> movement, with people replacing parts they don't like with parts they do,
> from the file system, to the init daemon, to the package format and
> manager, all the way up to the desktop.
> 
> Now, we are regressing to the desktop (Gnome) depending on a specific init
> system (systemd).
> 
> On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 12:09 AM, Chris Frey <cdfrey at foursquare.net> wrote:
> 
> > This is just building on top of btrfs and systemd, no?
> >
> > http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html
> >
> > If you're going to go that route, might as well go the whole way and
> > get all the benefits you can. :-)  Looks like Ubuntu is attempting just
> > that.
> >
> > - Chris
> >
> >
> > On Sat, May 09, 2015 at 02:57:32PM -0400, Khalid Baheyeldin wrote:
> > > Ubuntu will be moving away from .deb it seems.
> > >
> > > http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/more-stable-future-ubuntu
> > >
> > > http://developer.ubuntu.com/en/snappy/
> > >
> > > This is a major undertaking. Ubuntu used to capitalize on the fact that
> > > debian has vast mostly centralized repositories with tens of thousands of
> > > packages.
> > >
> > > Now,Canonical will either have to a) re-roll all the packages from debian
> > > on an ongoing basis as releases (very labour intensive), or b) settle
> > for a
> > > subset of what is available, thus causing less choice for their user
> > base.
> > >
> > > Usually a major change like that used to be rolled out to the community
> > for
> > > testing for a fair amount of time, and then when acceptance grows (or
> > not),
> > > it is gets into popular distros.
> > >
> > > Snappy was announced in December of 2014, so it is only six months old
> > ...
> > >
> > > But of late things have been moving into a different direction: top down,
> > > not bottom up as it used to be. The example is systemd's adoption in
> > Debian
> > > and Ubuntu.
> > > --
> > > Khalid M. Baheyeldin
> > > 2bits.com, Inc.
> > > Fast Reliable Drupal
> > > Drupal optimization, development, customization and consulting.
> > > Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. --  Edsger W.Dijkstra
> > > Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. --   Leonardo da Vinci
> > > For every complex problem, there is an answer that is clear, simple, and
> > > wrong." -- H.L. Mencken
> >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > kwlug-disc mailing list
> > > kwlug-disc at kwlug.org
> > > http://kwlug.org/mailman/listinfo/kwlug-disc_kwlug.org
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > kwlug-disc mailing list
> > kwlug-disc at kwlug.org
> > http://kwlug.org/mailman/listinfo/kwlug-disc_kwlug.org
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Khalid M. Baheyeldin
> 2bits.com, Inc.
> Fast Reliable Drupal
> Drupal optimization, development, customization and consulting.
> Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. --  Edsger W.Dijkstra
> Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. --   Leonardo da Vinci
> For every complex problem, there is an answer that is clear, simple, and
> wrong." -- H.L. Mencken

> _______________________________________________
> kwlug-disc mailing list
> kwlug-disc at kwlug.org
> http://kwlug.org/mailman/listinfo/kwlug-disc_kwlug.org