[kwlug-disc] linux distro for nontech windows user

[William Park]

I tried Fedora Kinoite 42-1.1 and 43-beta in VirtualBox (7.2.2).

  * Both installed OK.
  * Right after, they show 12 updates waiting.
  * I click "Update All".
  * I get 10 errors, and they're unusable after that.

Maybe it's my VirtualBox, I don't know.  At least, *Mint* (XFCE + KDE) 
is standard layout.

By the way, doesn't *Fedora* have ability to "revert" back to last 
snapshot?  I remember, reading about it.


On 2025-10-20 00:20, Doug Moen wrote:
> William, probably just ignore what I said earlier. I've upgraded my 
> Thinkpad from Mint to Kinoite now, and I'm still trying to understand 
> how it works.
>
> The underlying filesystem is btrfs. The root file system is mounted as 
> a readonly composefs file system. The "OSTree" system, which appears 
> to be a git-like version-controlled package manager, implements a 
> "content-addressable object store", where multiple versions of the 
> same file can exist. These files are immutable and are addressed using 
> their content hashes (which is roughly how I believe git works). 
> Multiple different versions of the same package can coexist in the 
> object store. Multiple releases of the operating system can co-exist 
> in the object store. Metadata is used to describe a particular 
> version, which then corresponds to a particular tree of files and file 
> content (which, note, is immutable). This metadata is interpreted by 
> the composefs file system driver to materialize an immutable tree of 
> files for a specific OS release.
>
> With this system, you can't directly modify the files of the core 
> operating system in the usual way, eg by editing a text file. The root 
> filesystem is readonly. Instead, the way you modify it is by 
> installing, upgrading, or removing a package (together with its 
> dependencies). (Note that you can edit files in /etc.)
>
> I am free to install any package I want into the core OS. I'll be 
> installing RPMs, since this is Fedora. The core OS package manager is 
> called rpm-ostree. OSTree keeps track of the history of package 
> installs as a sequence of git-like commits, or layers (like in a 
> container repository).
>
> Until now I've mainly used Debian based distros: Ubuntu and Mint. My 
> typical habit is to install all sorts of weird software from 3rd party 
> repositories. Eventually the package system somehow gets corrupted and 
> a bunch of things break when I upgrade the operating system. OSTree is 
> supposedly more resistant to this kind of corruption to due the 
> additional structure it keeps track of. One big benefit is that if you 
> install a package and all its dependencies, that change will be 
> applied as a single atomic transaction, either all or nothing. And 
> then you can cleanly revert this change later, without ending up with 
> packages that are no longer referenced and must be garbage collected.
>
> One thing I managed to do a while back was corrupt the C compiler, 
> clang, after an OS upgrade. I have no way of knowing how this 
> happened, and there's no way to fix it other than wipe the disk and do 
> a clean OS install. The Mint documentation warns you that this can 
> happen, and tells you to do a fresh install as the solution, so it's 
> not just me. It must be inherent in the way that the Debian apt 
> package manager works. The Mint docs say you are particularly at risk 
> when you use 3rd party package repositories.
>
> With Kinoite, you are encouraged to be choosy about what packages you 
> install in the core OS. For development work, you are recommended to 
> work in a container. You can have multiple containers with different 
> versions of the same languages, and they don't conflict with each 
> other. Upgrading the operating system won't break any of your 
> containers. You can delete a container without modifying the core 
> operating system or interfering with any of the other containers. 
> Kinoite pre-installs a container tool called "toolbox", which allows 
> you to create a custom environment in which you can install packages, 
> then you can run a shell in this container.
>
> For GUI apps, you are encouraged to install flatpaks, instead of 
> installing apps directly into the core OS (although either will work). 
> The new install of Kinoite came with an old version of Firefox in the 
> core OS. I don't use firefox anymore, because it is riddled with 
> advertising and spyware. I installed LibreWolf and Ungoogled Chromium 
> from flathub, and they work flawlessly. They were a bit buggy on Mint, 
> which had soured me on the use of flatpaks, but on Kinoite, it appears 
> that flatpaks just work.
>
> Instead of Cinnamon, I'm using KDE. They are very, very similar; both 
> are essentially clones of the classic Windows desktop environment. On 
> my previous Cinnamon install, the desktop magnification feature was 
> buggy and flaky. I rely on this due to my eyesight. On my new system, 
> it is so far rock solid.
>
> I'll need to use the system for 6 months and go through a few upgrade 
> cycles before I know if I like this, but so far it is my best 
> experience yet for desktop linux.
>
> The installation process is not beginner friendly, and setting up dual 
> boot correctly in particular is claimed to be tricky, but once 
> installed, it is quite beginner friendly. LIbreOffice is not 
> preinstalled, but it's in the app store, which is pinned to the dock. 
> A beginner would just be installing flatpaks from the app store, and 
> not messing with the command line tools that I mentioned.
>
> There are other distros that work this way, not just Fedora. Eg, 
> Vanilla OS <https://vanillaos.org/> is debian based. Search for 
> "immutable linux".
>
> Doug.
>
> On Fri, Oct 17, 2025, at 8:38 PM, William Park via kwlug-disc wrote:
>>
>> On 2025-10-17 07:04, Doug Moen wrote:
>>> The system doesn't switch over to the new release until you reboot, 
>>> when it will atomically switch over to the new release. Internally, 
>>> the atomic switchover doesn't require moving or copying files, it's 
>>> just a single file that changes to point to the new release. If the 
>>> new release has problems, you can roll back to the previous release, 
>>> either in the boot menu, or in the GUI app store.
>>
>> Single file?  Ahh, mount this "os file" read-only, and then do 
>> overlay.  If "os file" can be selected like "kernel" now, then it 
>> would be easier for users.  My only concern would be speed.
>>
>> But, having separate /home partition, and 2 root partitions (current 
>> and old) would be same thing, no?  Just don't wipe the *whole* disk, 
>> when installing distro. :-)
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>
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