[kwlug-disc] linux distro for nontech windows user

[Doug Moen]

It seems that rpm-ostree supports atomic, transactional package update and rollback. It is said that the rollback works more reliably than using a legacy package manager together with a filesystem like btrfs that supports snapshots and rollback.

rpm-ostree clearly distinguishes which packages you have layered, and it’s easy to remove them, going back to a pristine, known state. Many package managers just implement a “bag of packages” model with no clear bases or layering. As the OS evolves over time, “package drift” occurs where you might have old, unused packages lying around.

One document describes this as git for package management. The underlying implementation and feature set also seems similar to nix.

In summary, there are three mechanisms for package management, from the simple to the sophisticated and powerful:
  * flatpak, for GUI apps;
  * toolbox, for setting up specific dev environments for specific projects, that don't interfere with one another or the base system, and which are easy to tear down;
  * rpm-ostree, fully general package manager with atomic transactional update and rollback.

Doug.

On Thu, Oct 16, 2025, at 8:20 PM, Doug Moen wrote:
> Sure, I used the Mint upgrade manager, but it broke parts of my system, and the documentation also warns that it can break your system. So the process worked as documented.
> 
> See also: https://community.linuxmint.com/tutorial/view/2
> > In a "fresh" upgrade you use the liveDVD of the new release to perform a new installation and to overwrite your existing partitions.
> > This is the recommended way to upgrade Linux Mint
> 
> I mentioned Zorin OS in my previous message. It has an upgrade app similar to Mint Upgrade Manager. Their docs say:
> > The upgrade may fail if you previously modified the operating system's core components.
> > If you made modifications like these to your system, we recommend replacing your current installation of Zorin OS <https://help.zorin.com/docs/getting-started/replace-your-zorin-os-installation/> with your new version instead of using the Upgrade Zorin OS app.
> 
> In both cases, it's ultimately because Mint and Zorin are based on Debian.
> 
> If I hadn't installed a bunch of random packages on Mint, the upgrade might have worked. But running weird niche software is something I want to do. There is a fundamental conflict between my desire to customize my system and run weird, niche packages, vs my desire for a reliable system, and Debian-style package managers are part of the problem. If you only install very popular and well tested packages, you may be okay, but there is a "long tail" of niche packages that are arbitrarily modified by packagers, breaking things that work upstream, and then inadequately tested, and there are interactions between packages that can break things on upgrade. It's impossible to test every interaction on upgrade between every debian package when a new release is cut, it's a combinatorial problem and there is no testing infrastructure to properly automate this in any case. This is a well known problem.
> 
> Maybe I need to keep all my weird software out of the base system, and don't use the package manager. Instead, download it from github and compile it myself. Put it in /usr/local, and then rebuild everything from scratch when I upgrade. A different kind of pain. Although that only goes so far, I probably can't install Niri without modifying the base system.
> 
> Maybe I should use Nix, but I am discouraged by the reports of a steep learning curve and the requirement for very high levels of technical competence to make it work, plus ongoing reports of a disfunctional community and technical process.
> 
> I'm reading more about Atomic Fedora, and I am intrigued. It has "toolbox", which allows you to install RPM packages in a way that is sandboxed or containerized. For stuff (like presumably Niri) that doesn't work in a container, eg because /etc must be modified, you can install RPM packages using rpm-ostree, which is "a hybrid image/package system with atomic upgrades and package layering". So, potentially more reliable than installing Debian packages? The base system remains immutable, and there are "layers" of packages. The use of Flatpak is not required.
> 
> I may have talked myself into installing Kinoite and seeing how I like it.
> 
> Doug.
> 
> On Thu, Oct 16, 2025, at 5:50 PM, Jason wrote:
>> There is a supported method to go through upgrading between major Mint versions. Typically you have to wait for the process to be released and documented:
>> 
>> https://linuxmint-user-guide.readthedocs.io/en/latest/index.html
>> 
>> On Thu, Oct 16, 2025, 5:26 PM Khalid Baheyeldin <kb at 2bits.com> wrote:
>>> I am really surprised and disappointed to hear that Mint's upgrade process is "backup and reinstall".
>>> 
>>> In my case, I have been running Xubuntu LTS for many years. 
>>> I do upgrade from one LTS release to the next.
>>> 
>>> Granted, I use the do-release-upgrade script, but the GUI equivalent should just be a wrapper around it. 
>>> 
>>> Xubuntu used XFCE which does not stand in the way of using a Linux desktop.
>>> 
>>> My recommendation is that they try out a couple of distros, using the Live CD feature.
>>> That way, they may like something or dislike it so as not to use it.
>>> 
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