<div dir="ltr"><div>If you want to think on the idea of smart cars that communicate with a central server, try reading the (fictional) novel Attack Surface by Cory Doctorow. It certainly opened my eyes to the possible evil of the whole concept.</div><div><br></div><div>As to trusting Elon Musk? I used to think he was the saviour of mankind, but nowadays I'm not so sure. I don't think I want to trust my security and privacy to a known Trump supporter, for starters.. I guess there's good and bad in all people.</div><div><br></div><div>If you're wondering, no, I haven't yet found a Utopian ideal for merging privacy and security with modern comforts.. I'm working on it, but it's slow going. I wish I could give you good news there.. <br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 10:21 PM Doug Moen <<a href="mailto:doug@moens.org">doug@moens.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><u></u><div><div>Thanks for posting the Joscha Bach link. I need to watch that video several times to absorb all the great ideas.<br></div><div><br></div><div>In the case of Tesla engineers, I think the greater good that they are working for is fighting climate change by switching the world economy from gasoline cars to electric cars. (Tesla also does batteries and solar panels, which are all part of the same mission to switch away from fossil fuels).<br></div><div><br></div><div>To promote this greater good (which is needed to avoid civilizational collapse), a tradeoff must be made, a lesser evil (surveillance) must be accepted. This is what I think they are thinking, in order to rationalize Tesla's behaviour. These kinds of tradeoffs must be considered if your ethical system is based on consequentialism, rather than on deontology (rules based morality). [<span><b>Consequentialism</b> is an ethical theory that judges whether
or not something is right by what its consequences are. For instance,
most people would agree that lying is wrong. But if telling a lie would
help save a person's life, <b>consequentialism</b> says it's the right thing to do.] In this case, following a rule (no surveillance), at the price of causing civilizational collapse, is not the most ethical thing to do.</span><br></div><div><br></div><div><span>Now why would Tesla think that surveillance is necessary in order to achieve their moral objectives? Once again, I'm trying to reverse engineer the Tesla mindset here. Surveillance is needed to collect data to optimize their products. Most obviously, it is needed for training their self driving car software. The self driving feature (which was supposed to be finished years ago) was supposed to be one of the killer features that would make Tesla electric cars more desirable than gasoline cars. Remember than in the early years of Tesla, the idea of an "electric car" was originally associated in peoples minds with short range electric golf cart like vehicles, and only highly motivated eco-hippies would make the extreme sacrifice of driving such a terrible vehicle. This is the culture that Tesla was trying to overcome. They needed to make electric cars sexy, desireable, and better in every way than gasoline cars, in order to overcome the original cultural mindset. They were also short of money (almost went bankrupt a few times), and needed every advantage they could get to achieve their goal with the resources they had. So building surveillance into the cars would be morally justified by the goals.</span><br></div><div><br></div><div>I think that Musk himself has an "aesthetic" (in Joscha's terminology) that diverges from the mainstream. This aesthetic is derived from the transhumanist science fiction of Iain Banks. I've read all the books. I know Musk has read all the books because he borrows names and terminology unique to those books in naming many of his projects. Those books depict a utopian future where all cars are self driving (Tesla), the human race is multiplanetary (Space X), and all humans have neural implants that augment their cognition and connect them to the internet, and these implants are called "neural lace" (Neuralink). Also, in Banks' utopian society, there is almost no privacy, with an exception made for private thoughts inside your own head. I think Musk himself places little value on privacy. He clearly has no shame, and that's consistent with not valuing privacy.<br></div><div><br></div><div>But I don't think that all Tesla engineers are fully immersed in Musk's transhumanist fantasy. Instead, those engineers (the ones uneasy about surveillance) have a mainstream esthetic, and are justifying their work for Tesla by using consequentialist ethics and considering moral tradeoffs, as I outlined above.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Doug.<br></div><div><br></div><div>On Fri, Jun 17, 2022, at 11:29 AM, Mikalai Birukou via kwlug-disc wrote:<br></div><blockquote type="cite" id="gmail-m_6325345873783467479qt"><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>Thanks Chris. We are long time Mazda owners. When our current
car starts breaking down, we would like to consider an electric
car. But without this kind of always-on telematics. I wonder if
it will be available?<br></div><div><br></div><div>I would like there to be Canadian government legislation
about this, framed as a consumer rights issue.<br></div><div> 1. The right to be fully informed about telematics before
purchase.<br></div><div> 2. The right to disable or opt out of telematics, without
crippling the thing being purchased:<br></div><div> * for privacy (no surveillance)<br></div><div> * for security (I don't want my car to become part of
someones botnet, and I don't want to give hackers the ability to
remotely take over my car).<br></div></blockquote><p><br></p><p>On the first DefCon with car hacking I bumped into Tesla
engineers and asked appropriate questions, like, can this be
turned off, disabled.<br></p><p>The disturbing element of the answer is that they did display
hesitation/unease about no option to turn off remote connectivity.
Which reminds a very interesting comment by Josha in his second
interview with Lex, at this point <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIpUf-Vy2JA&t=8944s" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIpUf-Vy2JA&t=8944s</a><br></p><p>Out of love for greater good they have in mind an aesthetic of
the world, which some of us know to be evil. I really wish every
single one of engineers in cars and in web tracking to be dragged
through real life in today's russia. Drag ones naked nerves
through it to know that without privacy there is no security,
none.<br></p><p><br></p><blockquote type="cite"><div>In Europe, the GDPR (General Data Protection Regulation of
2018) gives consumers these rights. It applies equally to car
telematics and cookie tracking on web sites. So if political
activism is required, we can point to the GDPR and say "me too".<br></div><div><br></div><div>The new data privacy bill C-27, announced yesterday, doesn't
do the job.<br></div><div> <a href="https://openmedia.org/press/item/new-privacy-legislation-repeats-past-mistakes" target="_blank">https://openmedia.org/press/item/new-privacy-legislation-repeats-past-mistakes</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>But there is still an opportunity to introduce amendments. I
am going to contact my MP and see what can be done. I recommend
everyone else on this list who is concerned by this issue to get
active.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Doug.<br></div><div><br></div><div>On Fri, Jun 17, 2022, at 12:07 AM, Chris Irwin via kwlug-disc
wrote:<br></div><blockquote type="cite" id="gmail-m_6325345873783467479qt-qt"><div>On Thu, Jun 16, 2022, at 17:47, Doug Moen wrote:<br></div><blockquote type="cite" id="gmail-m_6325345873783467479qt-qt-qt"><div>Like for example, we just bought a new washing machine
and dryer. The top selling brand transmits everything you do
to the manufacturer over the internet. For now, this is opt
in, but internet surveillance already cannot be turned off
for a growing number of consumer machines and appliances. We
bought a less popular brand with no surveillance, because
that's something that's still available.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>You may find this interesting/disconcerting:<br></div><div><br></div><div><a href="https://www.mazda.ca/en/mazda-connected-vehicle/overview/" target="_blank">https://www.mazda.ca/en/mazda-connected-vehicle/overview/</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>Neat, Mazda has an app. It does a bunch of neat things like
letting you start, pre heat/cool your car, unlock doors, get
reminders for service and recalls. Neat. Oh, it can tell you
where you parked your car, too.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Wait, how does this work? Lets check the privacy policy,
because it's not documented anywhere else...<br></div><div><br></div><div><a href="https://www.mazda.ca/en/privacy-policy/cv-privacy/" target="_blank">https://www.mazda.ca/en/privacy-policy/cv-privacy/</a><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><span><u><b>Vehicle Data: </b></u></span>When
you purchase or lease a Connected Vehicle, the telematics
system is active by default and transmits vehicle data,
including driving behavior data (including the acceleration
and speed of your Connected Vehicle, travel direction, and
use of steering and braking functions) and vehicle health
data (which includes Vehicle Identification Number (VIN);
odometer, fuel level, and oil life readings; Diagnostic
Trouble Codes (DTCs); and data from the Connected Vehicle’s
OBD system, including engine coolant temperature, fuel
injection volume, engine Rotation Per Minute (RPM), and the
status of doors, hood, trunk, and hazard lights). If your
Connected Vehicle has a Connected Services plan, we also
collect geo-location coordinates of your Connected Vehicle’s
latitude and longitude.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Oh, and don't forget you've also installed an app on your
phone!<br></div><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><p><span><u><b>MyMazda Data:</b></u></span> If you
use the MyMazda app, we collect the location of your device,
device type, device operating system, Internet Protocol (IP)
address, unique identifier, type of browser, Internet
service provider, phone number, and information about your
use of MyMazda, including screen time, scrolling, specific
actions and taps, reactions to alerts, the progress,
completion and/or abandonment of in-application purchases,
and crash reports.<br></p></blockquote><div><br></div><div>And I'm not picking on Mazda in particular. I'm only aware
of it because I own a Mazda and it came up in a discussion
forum. Almost every car in the last few years has this kind of
connectivity now. People expect it. You can probably blame
Tesla.<br></div><div><br></div><div id="gmail-m_6325345873783467479qt-qt-sig91988184"><div>-- <br></div><div><b>Chris Irwin</b><br></div><div><br></div><div><span><span><span style="font-family:menlo,consolas,monospace,sans-serif">email: <a href="mailto:chris@chrisirwin.ca" target="_blank">chris@chrisirwin.ca</a></span></span></span><br></div><div><span><span><span style="font-family:menlo,consolas,monospace,sans-serif"> web: <a href="https://chrisirwin.ca" target="_blank">https://chrisirwin.ca</a></span></span></span><br></div></div><div><br></div><div>_______________________________________________<br></div><div>kwlug-disc mailing list<br></div><div><a href="mailto:kwlug-disc@kwlug.org" target="_blank">kwlug-disc@kwlug.org</a><br></div><div><a href="https://kwlug.org/mailman/listinfo/kwlug-disc_kwlug.org" target="_blank">https://kwlug.org/mailman/listinfo/kwlug-disc_kwlug.org</a><br></div><div><br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><pre>_______________________________________________
kwlug-disc mailing list
<a href="mailto:kwlug-disc@kwlug.org" target="_blank">kwlug-disc@kwlug.org</a>
<a href="https://kwlug.org/mailman/listinfo/kwlug-disc_kwlug.org" target="_blank">https://kwlug.org/mailman/listinfo/kwlug-disc_kwlug.org</a>
<br></pre></blockquote><div><div>-- <br></div><div> Mikalai Birukou <br></div><div> CEO | 3NSoft Inc.<br></div></div><div>_______________________________________________<br></div><div>kwlug-disc mailing list<br></div><div><a href="mailto:kwlug-disc@kwlug.org" target="_blank">kwlug-disc@kwlug.org</a><br></div><div><a href="https://kwlug.org/mailman/listinfo/kwlug-disc_kwlug.org" target="_blank">https://kwlug.org/mailman/listinfo/kwlug-disc_kwlug.org</a><br></div><div><br></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
kwlug-disc mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:kwlug-disc@kwlug.org" target="_blank">kwlug-disc@kwlug.org</a><br>
<a href="https://kwlug.org/mailman/listinfo/kwlug-disc_kwlug.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://kwlug.org/mailman/listinfo/kwlug-disc_kwlug.org</a><br>
</blockquote></div>