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<p>I just sent this from the wrong account... let's try it again!</p>
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<p>It seems that the lads down at the Black Hat conference in Las Vegas aren't too thrilled with systemd either:</p>
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<p><a href="https://linux.slashdot.org/story/17/07/29/1647255/systemd-named-lamest-vendor-at-pwnie-security-awards?utm_source=feedly1.0mainlinkanon&utm_medium=feed" class="OWAAutoLink" id="LPlnk905468" previewremoved="true">https://linux.slashdot.org/story/17/07/29/1647255/systemd-named-lamest-vendor-at-pwnie-security-awards?utm_source=feedly1.0mainlinkanon&utm_medium=feed</a></p>
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<a id="LPImageAnchor_15013677186350.6330973478214594" href="https://linux.slashdot.org/story/17/07/29/1647255/systemd-named-lamest-vendor-at-pwnie-security-awards?utm_source=feedly1.0mainlinkanon&utm_medium=feed" target="_blank" style="display:table-cell; text-align:center"><img id="LPThumbnailImageID_15013677186350.8325494935551165" width="64" height="64" style="display:inline-block; max-width:250px; max-height:250px; height:64px; width:64px; border-width:0px; vertical-align:bottom" src="https://a.fsdn.com/sd/topics/debian_64.png"></a></div>
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<a id="LPUrlAnchor_15013677186360.7751688975568081" href="https://linux.slashdot.org/story/17/07/29/1647255/systemd-named-lamest-vendor-at-pwnie-security-awards?utm_source=feedly1.0mainlinkanon&utm_medium=feed" target="_blank" style="text-decoration:none">Systemd
Named 'Lamest Vendor' At Pwnie Security Awards - Slashdot</a></div>
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linux.slashdot.org</div>
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Long-time Slashdot reader darkpixel2k shares a highlight from the Black Hat USA security conference. The Register reports: The annual Pwnie Awards for serious security screw-ups saw hardly anyone collecting their prize at this year's ceremony in Las Vegas...
The gongs are divided into categories,...</div>
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<div id="x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> kwlug-disc <kwlug-disc-bounces@kwlug.org> on behalf of Hubert Chathi <hubert@uhoreg.ca><br>
<b>Sent:</b> 29 July 2017 15:20<br>
<b>To:</b> kwlug-disc@kwlug.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [kwlug-disc] Devuan, a distro without systemd</font>
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<div class="PlainText">On Sat, 29 Jul 2017 13:09:50 -0400, Khalid Baheyeldin <kb@2bits.com> said:<br>
<br>
[...]<br>
<br>
> Even if systemd was the default it should be fully replaceable from<br>
> the start, not 3 years after.<br>
<br>
In fact, it was fully intended to be replaceable from the start of the<br>
switch to systemd-as-default. For example, see<br>
<a href="https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=746715" id="LPlnk68444" previewremoved="true">https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=746715</a>, in which the<br>
Debian Technical Committee resolved that:<br>
<br>
"For the record, the TC expects maintainers to continue to support<br>
the multiple available init systems in Debian. That includes<br>
merging reasonable contributions, and not reverting existing<br>
support without a compelling reason."<br>
<br>
(This was about 6 months after their original resolution deciding that<br>
systemd would be the default.)<br>
<br>
>> Some Debian Developers, in fact, have done work on implementing<br>
>> things to allow those desktops to work without systemd, though I<br>
>> haven't tried it out myself, so I don't know how well it works.<br>
<br>
> The thread you linked to was from last May. Are other desktops<br>
> non-systemd capable since then?<br>
<br>
The work on making the desktops runnable without systemd was done quite<br>
a while ago -- it wasn't started recently. There's a package in Debian<br>
called systemd-shim, which has been in Debian since jessie, to implement<br>
some of the required systemd functionality for non-systemd systems. You<br>
should be able to install GNOME, KDE, or XFCE in Debian without<br>
systemd-sysv (i.e. without running systemd as init). On my system,<br>
which has XFCE, some GNOME components, and some KDE components, and<br>
which is somewhere between jessie and stretch (I'm part-way through<br>
upgrading), if I do "apt remove systemd-sysv", then it just says that it<br>
will remove systemd-sysv, and install systemd-shim and sysvinit-core,<br>
while leaving everything else untouched. Though I haven't actually<br>
tried it to see how well it works in practice.<br>
<br>
In any case, as I said, it's mostly an issue of the desktops having<br>
chosen to use systemd, and not an issue of Debian choosing systemd as<br>
the default. I think that Debian has done about as much as it can to<br>
make running a non-systemd possible, because it can't make decisions for<br>
upstream, and there's only so much additional work that Debian<br>
Developers can be expected to do to make things compatible.<br>
<br>
>>> And I tried checking on Ubuntu 16.04, and neither sysvinit-core nor<br>
>>> runit-systemd exist.<br>
>> <br>
>> I don't pay much attention to Ubuntu, but those packages are present<br>
>> in Debian stretch.<br>
<br>
> Ubuntu had its own init system which worked well. It suffered from the<br>
> non obvious error messages when things did not work, but one had to<br>
> check in /var/log/mysql* (or whatever package that failed to start).<br>
<br>
> When Debian said they are going systemd wholesale, Ubuntu just<br>
> followed along. They could have said, we will wait and see, or make it<br>
> an option, but instead they too decided to go all in on<br>
> systemd. Another bad decision.<br>
<br>
If you want to complain about Ubuntu not offering a choice, I have no<br>
objection there. They seem to have gone further than Debian in making<br>
systemd their default in that they seem to not allow the option for<br>
running sysv as init even though Debian allows for that. But Ubuntu<br>
seems to be diverging from Debian in some ways. Although Ubuntu is<br>
derived from Debian, they are quite separate, and what is true for one<br>
is not necessarily true for the other.<br>
<br>
Hubert<br>
<br>
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