[kwlug-disc] Ubuntu is replacing .deb with Snappy

Wed May 13 17:33:03 EDT 2015

I don't think snappy is worth freaking out about quite yet.

Here's what sabdfl says about it in his keynote:

https://youtu.be/9IfgX-k7Hag?t=10m24s

He focuses exclusively on things like routers and other devices, as the
target for Snappy Ubuntu.

On the desktop, .debs aren't going away anytime soon.

On the phone, snappy will likely replace click packages.  So click packages
aren't going to make it to the desktop.

I'm skeptical that the universe archive is ever going to go away.  But
we'll probably start seeing snaps for self-contained applications on top of
the Debian-based core system.  Particularly as the convergence story starts
coming together and the phone stuff starts merging with the desktop.

Regardless, it's early days, still.  I'd be skeptical of anything you're
reading about this.  Ubuntu's history is littered with grand announcements
for things that end abandoned or turning out to be no big deal.  So we'll
see.

Darcy.

On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 4:48 PM, Khalid Baheyeldin <kb at 2bits.com> wrote:

> I am also a .deb user, and feel that it is the best out there.
>
> Saying that Debian is a monoculture is kind of odd. Debian has the most
> support out there for architectures, and the widest array of application
> packages for any distro.
>
> Not that there is no room for improvement, there is always that room for
> many technologies, including the package managers.
>
> But here is my concern:
>
> Currently Ubuntu mostly copies the .deb repos from Debian and modify a
> little (a limited number of packages), then publish them on their own
> repos. Most applications are just a straight copy of what is on Debian, so
> there is no customization or porting effort at all.
>
> What I am concerned about is that the effort required to convert from .deb
> to snappy will become a hindrance to constantly keep up with Debian, and
> that would result in a reduced number of packages be available to Ubuntu
> users.
>
> If they pull it off, then good for them. But I fear that it will not be so
> rosy.
>
> On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 3:56 PM, Chris Frey <cdfrey at foursquare.net> wrote:
>
>> First, apologies, as it looks like I assumed too early that Snappy uses
>> btrfs.  It's hard to find out exactly what it uses, but it looks
>> partition based.  For example, this page mentions vfat and ext4:
>>
>>         https://developer.ubuntu.com/en/snappy/guides/filesystem-layout/
>>
>> I made a mental connection with what I had read earlier on 0pointer.net,
>> so the direction didn't seem surprising, although I made an incorrect
>> assumption on the underlying technology.
>>
>> I like the old way of package management, but then again I'm not managing
>> 1000 cloud images and apps either.  This Snappy thing appears to be
>> *very* cloud oriented.  It just happens to show up on Ubuntu desktop,
>> since that is Ubuntu's own dogfood.
>>
>> Rollback is one area in the old package management which is really
>> non-existant.
>> There's no "apt-get undo".  If you're unlucky enough to have cleared your
>> apt-get cache, just finding the old .deb you need is work.
>>
>> The potential duplication of data in Snappy concerns me, but it could
>> be mitigated by btrfs.  I haven't tried Snappy yet, but from the overview,
>> it looks like developers can include the libraries they want.  This
>> looks like a maintenance headache when you want to fix the latest SSL bug
>> in all your app containers.
>>
>> As for monoculture, when it comes to package management, I live in one
>> already.  Apt-get is the first and best package manager that handles
>> dependencies, in my opinion, and there's nothing that matches it,
>> even though it has its problems.  Other package management systems
>> feel kludgy to me in comparison.
>>
>> I stick with Debian because of the large software repository, their signed
>> packages, their free software focus, and their stability.  It appears
>> that Ubuntu is at least copying 2 of those 4 (large repo and signed
>> Snappy packages, from what I've read), and we'll see how they do on
>> the last two.
>>
>> I'm happy to stand on the sidelines and see how Ubuntu does for now.
>> A quick test in my Jessie VM seems to indicate that it is still possible
>> (with minimal work) to install xfce4 without systemd or pulseaudio.
>>
>> So choice still exists. :-)
>>
>> - Chris
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 10:25:32AM -0400, Khalid Baheyeldin wrote:
>> > Anyone can make outrageous claims or ideas.
>> >
>> > So when someone advocates for a package management system built on top
>> of a
>> > specific file system, that is not really odd.
>> >
>> > What is odd is that the majority do not see that this limits choice and
>> > promotes monoculture (you have to use btrfs to use newfanglepkg). This
>> lack
>> > of choice and monoculture have been the mainstay of the free software
>> > movement, with people replacing parts they don't like with parts they
>> do,
>> > from the file system, to the init daemon, to the package format and
>> > manager, all the way up to the desktop.
>> >
>> > Now, we are regressing to the desktop (Gnome) depending on a specific
>> init
>> > system (systemd).
>> >
>> > On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 12:09 AM, Chris Frey <cdfrey at foursquare.net>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > > This is just building on top of btrfs and systemd, no?
>> > >
>> > >
>> http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html
>> > >
>> > > If you're going to go that route, might as well go the whole way and
>> > > get all the benefits you can. :-)  Looks like Ubuntu is attempting
>> just
>> > > that.
>> > >
>> > > - Chris
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Sat, May 09, 2015 at 02:57:32PM -0400, Khalid Baheyeldin wrote:
>> > > > Ubuntu will be moving away from .deb it seems.
>> > > >
>> > > > http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/more-stable-future-ubuntu
>> > > >
>> > > > http://developer.ubuntu.com/en/snappy/
>> > > >
>> > > > This is a major undertaking. Ubuntu used to capitalize on the fact
>> that
>> > > > debian has vast mostly centralized repositories with tens of
>> thousands of
>> > > > packages.
>> > > >
>> > > > Now,Canonical will either have to a) re-roll all the packages from
>> debian
>> > > > on an ongoing basis as releases (very labour intensive), or b)
>> settle
>> > > for a
>> > > > subset of what is available, thus causing less choice for their user
>> > > base.
>> > > >
>> > > > Usually a major change like that used to be rolled out to the
>> community
>> > > for
>> > > > testing for a fair amount of time, and then when acceptance grows
>> (or
>> > > not),
>> > > > it is gets into popular distros.
>> > > >
>> > > > Snappy was announced in December of 2014, so it is only six months
>> old
>> > > ...
>> > > >
>> > > > But of late things have been moving into a different direction: top
>> down,
>> > > > not bottom up as it used to be. The example is systemd's adoption in
>> > > Debian
>> > > > and Ubuntu.
>> > > > --
>> > > > Khalid M. Baheyeldin
>> > > > 2bits.com, Inc.
>> > > > Fast Reliable Drupal
>> > > > Drupal optimization, development, customization and consulting.
>> > > > Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. --  Edsger W.Dijkstra
>> > > > Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. --   Leonardo da Vinci
>> > > > For every complex problem, there is an answer that is clear,
>> simple, and
>> > > > wrong." -- H.L. Mencken
>> > >
>> > > > _______________________________________________
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>> > >
>> > >
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>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Khalid M. Baheyeldin
>> > 2bits.com, Inc.
>> > Fast Reliable Drupal
>> > Drupal optimization, development, customization and consulting.
>> > Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. --  Edsger W.Dijkstra
>> > Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. --   Leonardo da Vinci
>> > For every complex problem, there is an answer that is clear, simple, and
>> > wrong." -- H.L. Mencken
>>
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > kwlug-disc mailing list
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>>
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>
>
>
> --
> Khalid M. Baheyeldin
> 2bits.com, Inc.
> Fast Reliable Drupal
> Drupal optimization, development, customization and consulting.
> Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. --  Edsger W.Dijkstra
> Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. --   Leonardo da Vinci
> For every complex problem, there is an answer that is clear, simple, and
> wrong." -- H.L. Mencken
>
> _______________________________________________
> kwlug-disc mailing list
> kwlug-disc at kwlug.org
> http://kwlug.org/mailman/listinfo/kwlug-disc_kwlug.org
>
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