[kwlug-disc] What is all this about systemd?

[Khalid Baheyeldin]

On Ubuntu so far, upstart is the init system. It generally stays out of the
way. Only one time I needed to deal with it, because MySQL would not start,
and had to find out that it logged to a different destination
(/var/log/upstart). Other than that, it is transparent.

Systemd is not like that. Wikipedia says that systemd provides replacements
for:
- SysV Init
- Cron
- pm-utils
- inetd
- syslog
- acpid

Not only that, authors of things like Gnome, now depend on systemd ...

And systemd authors in turn want to the kernel to behave according to its
whim ...

This mentality is misguided and dangerous ...

For RedHat, it is run and controlled by a corporation, and hence the
differences from community run distro.

What I can't get is why Debian, the most community run of them all, and one
of the oldest, has decided to go with something like systemd.

The corporate motive is not at play here. But perhaps the FreeDesktop
faction is more powerful than the UNIX way faction and hence the vote to
move to systemd.


On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 9:26 PM, unsolicited <unsolicited at swiz.ca> wrote:

> But that is the key ... we are dependent upon the distros.
>
> More particularly, we are dependent upon the most popular distros - Debian
> (Ubuntu), Fedora (CentOS/RHEL), or (Open)SuSe based. It is a hard sell to
> an enterprise outside of those. And even then Fedora and SuSe have in
> essence abandoned apt-get. And aside from Debian, these popular distros
> have corporate underpinnings - and thus vested interests in 'their' way, as
> going concerns.
>
> What they do over and above Linus impacts us as much or more than what
> Linus does. They're going to take his stuff regardless. How they munge it
> beyond that is beyond our control. We do not have enough feet such that
> voting with our feet is meaningful.
>
> I can get why the desire to move away from text files - but I don't get
> not building a command line interface as part and parcel of developing any
> given API. And I can get the desire for 'one true way' for any given thing.
> Simplicity, solve the problem, and move on - except, no problem is static.
> (An attitude I find in most service people that I have to keep fighting -
> "No!" don't cinch up that tie wrap, inevitably someone will have to follow
> you with further work and leverage what you have done. DON'T make them cut
> away all your work in order to do theirs! Do comment your code, DO make
> functions that return codes!)
>
> And I can appreciate that 'Linux' is so big a haystack that it is
> problematic integrating your 'good stuff' with everything else, rather than
> just 'solving the problem and moving on'. 'cause integrating with
> everything is an impossible perpetually ongoing task, it's too big for any
> one person to know everything, so one never actually gets closure.
>
> And probably the single biggest reason for so many abandoned projects.
>
>
>
> On 14-07-17 08:34 PM, Khalid Baheyeldin wrote:
>
>> Anyone can propose anything, no matter how absurd it is. If the FLOS (one
>> S) people including Lennart Poettering want to build monolithic
>> subsystems,
>> that is fine. Let them do their thing. Others like me and you who find the
>> standard UNIX way better can ignore them and go about their business
>> unaffected.
>>
>> But when these monolithic systems creep into almost every distribution,
>> including Debian and Ubuntu, then it is not someone we can ignore, even if
>> we want to.  It is being shoved down our throats.
>>
>> Linus Torvalds had to stop accepting patches from the systemd maintainer,
>> and shout at him, because back in April because of this very monolithic
>> mindset.
>>
>> I hope that sanity finds its way eventually, and we don't end up with
>> systemd being the only choice, with many things depending on it ...
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 8:25 PM, unsolicited <unsolicited at swiz.ca> wrote:
>>
>>  That's disturbing.
>>>
>>> Guess my bubble that *nix is *nix burst with CentOS vs Debian. Got worse
>>> with OpenSuSe. I like the phrase in the article ... "It’s a UNIX system!
>>> I
>>> know this!." Not so much, it turns out. One of the reasons I got so very
>>> tired of Windows was the moving target. Stop making me relearn what I
>>> already know, and let me get on with my day. I know how to use the
>>> hammer,
>>> let me get on with doing something useful with it. Stop handing me a
>>> different hammer.
>>>
>>> The recent thread here of "Switching Jobs from Debian Shop to RHEL?" just
>>> re-demonstrates all of this.
>>>
>>> The deal breaker for me is su vs sudo. sudo assumes there is more than
>>> one
>>> admin per machine, and allows the logging / tracking based on that
>>> userid.
>>> su takes that away, and forces the sharing / common root password across
>>> the organization. <sad>
>>>
>>> Not to start a flamewar here.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 14-07-17 05:51 PM, Khalid Baheyeldin wrote:
>>>
>>>  If you are like me, and watching the creeping up of systemd (e.g. Debian
>>>> voting for it, and Ubuntu following), and dreading it ...
>>>>
>>>> Here is an article why systemd is a concern, and the FLOS (one S!)
>>>> philosophy behind it ...
>>>>
>>>> http://pappp.net/?p=969
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
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-- 
Khalid M. Baheyeldin
2bits.com, Inc.
Fast Reliable Drupal
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For every complex problem, there is an answer that is clear, simple, and
wrong." -- H.L. Mencken
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